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t20 and Hellmar speak on recent events

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 3 post(s)
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2007.02.09 21:03:00 - [1] Originally by: t20 Blog Sadly enough, the allegation regarding unlawfully obtained blueprints are, in my case, true. Returning the BPOs is a good start. However, the issue remains of any isk that would have been generated via these ill-gottent BPOs. At the very least, BoB should have to payback a percentage of the profits these BPOs would be expected to produce over the time they were in BoB's possesion. Regarding t20s future, he should AT THE VERY LEAST be banned from playing the game for an extended period (i.e. any player accounts he may have now and he should not be allowed to create any new accounts). His future with CCP should also be seriously considered going forward.
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2007.02.09 22:40:00 - [2] Originally by: Doctor Zemmen 3) How many more of these occurances go undiscovered? When the GM gave himself a faction BS, fully faction fitted, CCP ensured us that something like that could never happen as all employee player accounts are audited on a regular basis. It was stated that even without the player complaint the GM would have been caught when the audit guys looked over the logs. Once again we find ourselves in a similar situation, and it took a player to bring it to CCP's attention. This guy didn't just give himself these BPO's, they must have been there for a long time. When was the audit actually going to catch him? I find very little faith in either the system of audit that CCP uses or in the people responsible. It sounds like he was caught, LAST SUMMER. However, CCP decided to do absolutely nothing about it and it took the community finding out before something was actually done. This gives us absolutely no reason why CCP should ever be trusted in matters such as this since their track record shows a complete willingness to ABSOLUTELY ABANDON THEIR OWN RULES when it is found convenient for them.
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2007.02.09 23:17:00 - [3] Originally by: Levin Cavil Edited by: Levin Cavil on 09/02/2007 23:10:00 My initial reaction was that t20 should be fired and I was a bit confused as to why he was still employed but after looking at the blogs a second time it really does make sense to let him stay. Originally by: Hellmar "Upon review I personally would have chosen to act differently, but what's done is done. Difficult decisions always have to be made, and we cannot always second guess how these would appear if, in part, they are revealed to outside parties who do not have the same information to base their choices on." The above statement is really the key, t20 was punished already for whatever it is he did. That punishment may not seem like enough to many people but its too late now to do anything. Double Jeopardy is what we are really talking about when asking for t20 to lose his job. While it may not seem like this is a long past event it actually is. CCP dealt with this months ago and asking them to dig it up now and change their decision is wrong. My trust in CCP is shaken but I am confident in whatever steps they take to prevent this from happeneing again. As a community I think we have asked for a lot in the last few days and CCP has given us what we wanted. We now know what happened and what is being done to stop it from happening again, there's not much more we can ask. TBH what should happen is simple: t20 should resign.
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2007.02.10 00:30:00 - [4] Edited by: Azerrad InExile on 10/02/2007 00:27:14 Originally by: Sir JoJo i would Like CCP to come out and clear the Rest of BOB and come out and let ppl know where the DEVS have chars so ppl can see its not only in BOB i know that might mean all DEVS have to delete there chars but was it my Company i would do that in a blink. becasue ATM 2k players are all looked at as cheaters and tbh its CCP who should fix that. I do believe that the vast majority of BoB players were completely in the dark about all of this. However, the fact remains that BoB as an alliance did improperly benefit from t20 being a part of it. It also seems that the high up leadership was well aware of this fact. Because of this, BoB will be labelled as cheaters and their accomplishments over the last couple of years will always carry with it a nice little asterisks regardless of what is said by CCP. The majority of BoB may not have been directly cheating, but they clearly did benefit from the cheating that occured.
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2007.02.10 04:33:00 - [5] Originally by: Kylania And yet you accept at face value the words of a known hacker who demanded ISK from people in order to blackmail CCP with stolen data from a third party website about an incident that happened 6 months ago? So far it seems the hacker in question has been much more open and honest than CCP has, sad as that is.
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2007.02.10 06:08:00 - [6] Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus Am I saying its right what he did? of course not.. But step back a few feet and look at what was done.. Missiles.. Thats all.. Now I'm sure your all thinking what else was done by t20 but i'm fairly certain it was just the missiles.. I mean really how much of an advantage does some T2 missiles give anyone? No doubt t20 thought the same thing.. What harm could come from spawning some T2 missile bpos.. You still have to have a clue about warfare to use them to gain territory and last itme I checked T2 missiles were availible in every region in an excess of stock.. This whole ordeal is just a 'flame CCP for cheating' and rightly so I guess but after you take all the consequenses into your head you should realize its a NON-EVENT.. From t20's blog: Quote: # Spike L Blueprint # Sabre Blueprint t20: "So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level."
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2007.02.10 06:23:00 - [7] Originally by: The Libertine I think I just found my new sig. By all means use it. Its from an old t20 post (Linkage) where he discusses people finding out dev alts and is a rather interesting read in light of this new information. t20: "So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level."
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2007.02.10 07:22:00 - [8] Originally by: Nez Perces QFT my god... I had no idea but if you do indeed google this issue, like the poster said it is all over the place.... practically every major mmorg website has a story running on this issue. At the very least CCP should find it a bit more difficult to ignore the tough questions with both their player base and the gaming media looking for answers. t20: "So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level."
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2007.02.10 15:58:00 - [9] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia And you'll notice at the bottom he states his characters went bye-bye. He was speaking from personal experience, and tbh, it wasn't our business to know. I'm starting to doubt that EVE players ever read the EULA or they'd know that punishments on EVE, or any MMO, are not public knowledge. You'll also notice that he apparently didn't lose his characters until AUGUST! Why, when this was caught in June did he get to keep his characters until August? Regarding the EULA, care to cite the specific section where it says that? Also note that t20 himself, speaking in a personal capacity and not as a CCP representative, decided to volunteer the information about his accounts going byebye. t20: "So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level."
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2007.02.10 17:01:00 - [10] Originally by: Comstr It's going to be sad, but t20 needs to resign. Because he can never, ever, represent CCP in public again. Who's going to take him seriously now? No idea, but I can't wait to see the reaction to his next post on the forums if he does continue working at CCP. t20: "So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level."
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2007.02.10 19:00:00 - [11] Originally by: Tanis Bastar ************ I suspect that the T2 BPOs might have been won by T20 during testing on Tranquility (ie, CCP was testing how the T2 lottery worked with various agents, RP amounts, etc.). The testing ended, T20 had won some BPOs. When he left RKK, the question arose--what do I do with these BPOs, can I just give them to my corp? Someone at CCP approved this idea, maybe not wanting to be bothered with re-inserting the BPOs into the lottery, and BoB got the BPOs. ************ I would hope that even CCP knows that it is a terrible idea to run tests on a live production environment. The entire reason SISI is kept around is to run tests such as these, so while its interesting to speculate, I'd be surprised if any tests such as these were ever performed on Tranquility. t20: "So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level."
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2007.02.10 19:04:00 - [12] Originally by: Gemmell what more information do u need, oh, yea sorry , the DEV's wrote this, so hey, there immune Here's the same section of the EULA with the reason why CCP is free to completely ignore the EULA as they see fit: ii. Termination of EULA CCP may terminate the EULA, close all your Accounts, and cancel all rights granted to you under the EULA if: (i) you fail to pay the subscription fee when due; (ii) CCP is unable to verify or authenticate any information you provide; (iii) you or anyone using any of your Accounts materially breaches the EULA, makes any unauthorized use of the System or Software, or infringes the rights of CCP or any third party; or (iv) CCP becomes aware of game play, chat or player activity under your Account that is, in CCP's discretion, inappropriate or in violation of the Rules of Conduct. Such termination shall be effective upon notice transmitted via electronic mail, or any other means reasonably calculated to reach you. CCP reserves the right to terminate any and all other Accounts that share the name, phone number, e-mail address, internet protocol address or credit card number with the closed Account. Termination by CCP under this section shall be without prejudice to or waiver of any and all of CCP's other rights or remedies, all of which are expressly reserved, survive termination, and are cumulative. You will not receive a refund of prepaid subscription fees for a termination pursuant to this section. However, just because the EULA gives them the legal option to ignore it if they want, that still doesn't make it a good idea to from a customer satisfaction point of view. t20: "So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level."
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2007.02.10 21:25:00 - [13] Originally by: Audri Fisher One more note. BoB just had a sizable chunk of there senior leadership forcibly removed. Kick em when they are down I say! I'd like to hear a source on this one as well... t20: "So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level."
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2007.02.10 21:49:00 - [14] Since kieron is back answering questions: Why weren't the T2 BPOs in question removed from the game when they were discovered?? t20: "So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level."
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2007.02.11 05:06:00 - [15] Originally by: Maya Rkell The problem, Baun, is you're taking the word of a self-admitted criminal. "uncovers"? No, don't weasle. "Criminally hacks". Do you have any arguments that aren't based on an Ad Hominem? t20: "So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level."
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2007.02.11 05:38:00 - [16] Originally by: Maya Rkell Azured, try reading my post. Thanks. I have been reading your posts, and they all seem to come back to the same argument (paraphrasing): "K is a hacker!" Also, its Azerrad, not Azured. t20: "So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level."
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2007.02.11 07:52:00 - [17] Edited by: Azerrad InExile on 11/02/2007 07:49:39 Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus As is the constant 'we are losing the war so it must be the devs helping bob' logic.. Ever think it really was just t20 and thats it? I'm sure if this had happened to some other less prominate alliance it would have genereated a few snickers and thats about it.. But hey I can understand your guys paranoia.. All I'm saying is that it makes absolutely no sense whatsoevr for the Devs to knowingly help one player group over another.. After reading all 70ish pages I'm almost 100% certain that the loudest voices are the ones using meta politics to turn the tables on bob.. Kudos to you for using every advantage you can to win.. But.. if you cant understand a different point of view then maybe a "Public Discussion" forum is not your cup of tea.. Go find a private one to have one sided debates over something that effects everyone in eve.. Its debatable how much help t20 was in the end, however the fact remains that BoB was playing the last 8 months with help from t20, at least in the form of t2 BPOs and possible other things as well. No one knows how things would have turned out without his assistance. I'd agree that it doesn't make much sense for the Devs to help one group over another, but that is EXACTLY WHAT HAS HAPPENED here for reasons that only t20 and the other Devs know... and unfortunately they don't seem to be very willing to tell us. t20: "So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level."
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2007.02.11 07:57:00 - [18] Edited by: Azerrad InExile on 11/02/2007 07:53:53 Originally by: Booster Junkie If CCP won't clean up their act willingly, it might be time to start flooding White Wolf with letters. CCP continually demonstrates they only respond to pressure, and short of canceling our accounts, there are other economic related pressures that can still be administered. This kind of back door gameplay cannot be allowed to continue under any circumstances. I'm not terribly familiar with their merger agreement, but it sounds like CCP holds most of the power. I'm sure White Wolf is none too happy right now though especially since this scandal is most likely going to end up being associated with the World of Darkness (or whatever its called) MMO when it is released. t20: "So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level."
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2007.02.11 08:33:00 - [19] Originally by: Goran The game itself hasn't changed. CCP hasn't changed. The players haven't changed. However, unlike the 4S and GM Scorp situation, this one has changed the public perception of CCP and the players/potential players willingness to trust CCP (as evidenced by this thread and countless gaming media sites). The main difference is CCP reaction... with 4S and the Scorp CCP handled things properly and made amends to the community by restoring the 4S name/firing the GM involved. In this case, CCP decided to not fire the developer invovled and for some reason decided to not even remove the t2 BPOs from the game. Not only that, they then tried to hide the event from the player base (see kierons first post on the subject discussing the "two allegations" and "hoping to put the issue behind us" without even discussing the t2 BPOs). Like it or not, CCP dug their own grave on this one and it is entirely up to them to get themselves out. t20: "So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level."
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2007.02.12 04:37:00 - [20] Originally by: Cker Heel Wanting to vandalize the company, though, is very disturbing. Thats human nature as well. t20: "So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level."
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2007.02.12 05:28:00 - [21] Edited by: Azerrad InExile on 12/02/2007 05:25:41 Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus If t20 is fired and SirMolle banned then I want CCP to search every database they have for evidence of logoffski abuse and then destroy all isk and material gains made on that character from the date that it first happened.. If the Dev cheating is to be re-punished then all the hoards of the crtl-q abusers should fare a similar fate yes? God knows that has an everyday and constant unbalancing effect on the fairness of playing eve unlike the ONE incident from a YEAR ago of a Dev abusing his powers that as most have admited now had an insignificant effective impact on BoB's parade of victory since then.. So if we throw one to the fire by God lets do em all.. As much as I hate it, the logoffski maneuver is not a breach of the EULA, so why would anyone get punished for it? t20: "So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level."
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2007.02.12 09:31:00 - [22] Originally by: MrDisposable Originally by: Kalroth To all the kids asking why Molle hasn't been banned ingame - forum misconduct doesn't yield ingame bans but forum warnings and/or bans (when you reach the maximum allowed warnings). Stop beating a dead horse, why should he be punished MORE than everyone else Ok so how many times can a person post personal Real life information on the forums before being banned? Since apparently doing it once and putting a persons real life career and family life in jeopardy is you know.... the same as me calling you an idiot... hypothetically speaking of course. Once. CCP's Suspension and Ban Policy states: Quote: An immediate permanent ban of an account may result if a player: * a. Has had four previous warnings for breaking any rules set forth in the EULA, Terms of Service or other rules or guidelines. * b. Divulges private and/or personal information about another subscriber or an official EVE Online representative through the EVE Online client or web site. t20: "So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level."
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2007.02.12 09:45:00 - [23] Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus Originally by: Suspension and Ban Policy An immediate permanent ban of an account *may* result if a player: That one word says it all.. Even the most inept lawyer in the world could drive a US carrier battlegroup through that one in CCP's defence.. And I'm fairly sure hes not inept.. Yep, sadly the entire EULA is written like that. However, at the very least it shows that CCP is applying the EULA unevenly in this circumstance. t20: "So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level."
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2007.02.12 09:51:00 - [24] Originally by: Mortania I'm not sure about anyone else, but where I live, mine and my wife's possessions are seen as one and the same. There is no separation of the two. BoB is all married to each other? t20: "So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level."
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2007.02.12 09:56:00 - [25] Originally by: Mortania You should get a job in politics, your spin is marvelous. CCP can't prevent my wife from logging into my account. Sure they can, because you don't own your account. Originally by: EULA Your Account, and all attributes of your Account, including all corporations, actions, groups, titles and characters, and all objects, currency and items acquired, developed or delivered by or to characters as a result of play through your Accounts, are the sole and exclusive property of CCP, including any and all copyrights and intellectual property rights in or to any and all of the same, all of which are hereby expressly reserved. Therefore, the fact that you and your wife are co-owners of everything in your possession is irrelevant in this case since you don't have ownership rights of the account to begin with. t20: "So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level."
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2007.02.12 10:15:00 - [26] Originally by: Mortania I also recall that Kieron doesn't work in Iceland. But that could be a total fabrication of my mind. Nah.. pretty sure kieron is US based. t20: "So Let us play and enjoy the game you and I both love on the same level."

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